Talking Wine with Rámon Verkoeijen

Wine and music are both about senses. It is sometimes said that the taste of wine can be influenced by certain music and sounds. How do you think about this from your area of expertise?

When listening to music, you get a certain feeling. That feeling can remind you of certain moments. For example, when you hear a great track by Avicii, it can take you back to a great night. Then think about drinking a nice Barolo during that evening. Yes, at that combo I really short-circuit, it doesn't match. So in music, in a way, you want the same subtlety as in wine, not something like chaotic music and a very full-bodied, warm autumn wine. That just doesn't match. That's why I definitely try to take that kind of detail into account, because it can have an impact. The overall mood has to be right, and music plays a crucial role in that.

Usually we ask our interview candidates for a wine-food combination, but in this case we are curious to know what you think is a good wine-music combination?

Basically what we were just talking about; every moment has its atmosphere and certain music goes with it. It's the same with wine, of course. You have certain moments when you think 'I feel like this wine now, it fits the moment perfectly'. While tasting a new wine, I usually listen to music I'm not familiar with yet. With unfamiliar music, I am not distracted because I listen to a song very analytically. Otherwise, I start thinking about why do I like this? How was it mixed again? What layers do I hear? Then you're doing completely different things than wine tasting. I myself like quiet, warmly mixed music very much in combination with wine. And when I do listen to music that is familiar to me, it's my playlist of more classical music and melodies. In that list, you will find songs by Patrick Watson and Sufjan Stevens, for example. Even though I make my own dance programme, it's not the music I put on during an evening of wine drinking. 

On Friday nights, you used to present a show with electronic music from the mid-80s to the early 90s mixed with Italo-disco and UK House. Is this a representation of your personal taste in music?

Yes definitely! I also make this music myself and I also produce for other artists. This once started as a hobby, but then I came into contact with Wessel van Diepen and he said: "you should do this seriously, you have a real talent for this". For me, it's a bit in between pop and dance. Besides, I am very much into analogue stuff. I often recognise the synthesizers used in a song. Then I hear this is the Roland D50 and this is the Yamaha DX7. They all provide a certain, typical sound. You can compare this principle to wine. In time, winemakers and connoisseurs can also recognise the soil, terroir, type of wood and varieties. 

Nice comparison! Well-known wineries indeed have a specific piece of terroir, and from time to time new winemakers naturally enter the business. Despite a winemaker having a different approach or style, you will always keep that typical or a piece of recognition. After all, many are working with that same terroir.

Daft Punk is another great example. For their latest album Random Access Memories, they recorded the music with all different microphones. In the track Giorgio by Moroder, you can hear a monologue by Giorgio Moroder describing his musical career in a nutshell. In the song, they always use the microphone from the relevant period. Exactly for the reason we just mentioned: each microphone has its own sound and tones. One producer did say to them, "no one is going to hear these sound differences, only you yourselves". In addition, many people were critical of their way of mixing. After all, Daft Punk did not like very high tones and they eliminated just that. High notes can actually be compared to sugar. The more sweet you eat, the more bland all the non-sweet is. While those proportions are actually not right at all. Because if you are used to very sweet, you actually have a different frame of reference. Of course, it's the same with wine and winemakers. Everyone has their own benchmark and in doing so, winemakers themselves experience very well the influences of a different terroir or different winemaking techniques, just like Daft Punk with the microphones. 

To stay in the world of music and wine; the punk scene is known, among other things, for their love of natural wine. How do you feel about natural wine?

 For me, natural wine is very much a love-hate relationship. Just the other day I was in a restaurant in Amsterdam with only natural wine on the menu. The first three courses went reasonably well, only then the sommelier heard me comment, "now just have that Meursault or a classic. Then the evening will be fun." To which he replied, "you are too traditional, you should be open to new things". Anyway, these were just too many new wines in one evening. That's like new music, you try to market that by playing familiar songs around it to entice people. So yes, that evening was quite spicy.

 Nevertheless, I recently bought another box of 20 bottles of natural wine and drank a very nice vin nature from Alsace. Although I must say that I drank three bottles of that now and that is more than enough. If I had had a box it would have been too much. Natural wine continues to fascinate me and it does keep me busy. There are at least two or three moments a week when I think: ah, should I try another bottle?

There is a lot to discover and taste in the world of wine. What region or wine (style) have you recently discovered that you wish you had known about earlier?

Yes, I had a moment like that recently with dessert wines, like a Sauternes. I didn't expect to ever like that. Now I like good Sauternes insanely, but it has to be balanced. Sherry I can also appreciate more and more. Recently I drank a PX and it was fantastic. Or a sweet Riesling and of course not to forget; the gewürztraminer we were just talking about!

We heard that your wine collection is around 500 bottles. Of those, what is the most special bottle and at what point does that bottle open?

By now, that number has risen to around 600 to 700 bottles. Basically, I know where everything is, but the other day I came across some champagne in a cupboard. Apparently there were still some bottles of Bollinger and Billecart-Salmon there. Since I wasn't expecting those bottles here, finding them really felt like a bonus. But getting back to your question, the most special bottle I think I happened to drink last week. That was a Krug 2004. That one opened on an ordinary Monday night. I used to be very much into saving special wine until a nice moment, but I don't do that anymore. Opening the wine makes the moment special. So if you just feel like drinking that bottle and you feel that from everything, that's the moment. It often happens that people save the bottle for that one occasion, then they are too late and the wine is over its peak. That really is such a waste!

Speaking of unique bottles, I still have a 2006 Krug lying around. After drinking that fantastic 2004, I am quite curious about the 2006 as well. I have also bought many Bourgognes that I am very curious about, but I have to wait at least another five years for them. I have to say that this is difficult...

 How do you keep all those 700 bottles?

My collection is scattered. At home I have two climate cabinets and both can hold around 180 bottles. I also have some special storage wines stored with an importer. There, the wines are stored under the right conditions and that's how I can be sure they're doing well.

Even though there are plenty of cellar treasures waiting for you - every wine lover has the elaborate desire to drink or own a certain wine. Which wine would this be for you?

Yes, that would mainly be the classics like Pétrus, Gaja, Rothschild... All those classics that everyone has been talking about for years, I would like to experience that too. And of course Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, that's really a milestone for me too. Although from me that may take a while yet. I'm still discovering so many wines and I think once you get to know a certain quality you don't pick up anything else so quickly. That's why you have to build it up a bit and don't start with the very best right away. This is also how I look at music and art. In time, you have tasted all the details and you can pick out all the elements. Then, when you taste a wine like that, only then are you completely open to it.

Your BNNVARA colleague Cesar Majorana and, for example, Antoin Peeters of RTL4 are also active in the wine world with tastings, a special wine account on Instagram or TikTok, in addition to their work in the media. Can we expect something similar from you soon?

These days, I spend half an hour answering messages on Instagram every day. Many people ask me for wine advice or wine-food combinations. This will only increase in the run-up to the holidays. But that's not a bad thing, because I enjoy spending time there and figuring things out. For now, I do that mainly through my own Instagram and a bit in our podcast of course.

To close with, we're curious about your perfect dinner party. Which (legendary) musicians, winemakers, chefs, etc. will be guests this evening? Who is cooking and what wine is being served?

It is on a balmy summer day and we are sitting outside with a beautifully set table and appropriate glassware. The chef who will be hosting the evening is then Paul Bocuse. He was a legendary chef from France and his restaurant L'Auberge Du Pont de Collonges near Lyon always had three stars. For me, he was the king of classic French cuisine.

That evening, we will drink iconic wines from France. We start with champagne and then bottles like Pétrus and Domaine de la Romanée-Conti open. During dinner, Patrick Watson is played and we end the evening with Daft Punk.